Curse

Mordakai · Apr 18, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

NCsoft is a just a publisher to Guild Wars, whereas they had direct hand with Lineage II.

BTW: even the male dark elves wear thongs, so...dont be so hasty ;P

Yeah, I should have clarified: NCsoft is not designing characters for Guild Wars.

And you're right, idealized portraits of characters go both ways: Conan is the "stereotypical" Fantasy Male Warrior... even though he is usually shown wearing nothing but a loin cloth and a big sword or axe. (I believe in the books he actually wears armor at certain points... correct me if I'm wrong!)

Miakoda · Apr 24, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

"both the skeletal frames and the tight clothes are very, VERY bad for fighting."

Disagree better to have non baggy/grabbable purchase on you if the idea is to get in and out you dont want someone to grab your clothing..

"Lean does make you faster, but skeletal makes you too weak to hurt anyone, or take a hit without literally breaking."

Yes because using a knife requires arnold like physique and strength..
ever heard of functional strength? large muscle mass does not = strength.

go to any martial arts forum and ask high level instructors/personalities about real fighting, they will usually say something like this:

In a real street fight/rawl situation you will not see the knife coming, it's not like the movies where they come at you one at a time and show you the knife beforehand, no, it's usually the other person from the side or behind that stabs you and then legs it..

when you are talking about REAL combat then training can help reduce the risk, but make no mistake someone with a gun or knife that wants you dead is going to be able to do it with ease, they wont say "hi i'm here to kill you with this", they will do it when your back is turned.

so bringing realism into this is pointless, muscle mass to a certain point helps but there is a point of diminished return. ask all the people around bruce at the time and even people like chuck norris how strong he was despite his size and muscle mass, a swift jab to the eyes before you lay into them is certainly more effective than a show of strength, humans are humans we all have the same weaknesses, eyes, nose, weak joints, and genitals too..

A human knee can be broken consistently with just a few pounds of pressure, regardless of size.

Certainly if some 7 stone fragile looking person is going to get cought or stand still while some arnold type pounds the crap of him chances are that fragile person will die, but that wouldn't be too smart now would it, no that fragile person is going to either run or carry a knife/gun which negates ego all together, something bruce said himself.

In a real fight situation you use dirty tactics and get the hell out of there before damage is done to you.

If i had to chose to take a kick to the nuts between bruce and arnold i would chose arnold every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjLZU...%20Bruce%20lee

Yes i know pointless rant, but in most cases speed > power.

Ira Blinks · Apr 25, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Miakoda
you have a few good points, but conclusion is totaly wrong. Power > speed by large margin. Speed is only relevant to the certain point when we talking about asian style martial arts (for slim and light guys or women). Speed that carries no power is useless, as fast and light hit only cause irritation and anger of the target. Deep blow (using melee weapon or fists) will end fight right there.

As you've said yourself - in most cases you wont see it coming. In _real_ life ability to survive and retaliate is much more important than lightning reflexes. You think who is more likely to survive a gunshot or a stab wound (provided it didnt hit vital organs) - heavy, bulky guy with layers of clothing or our dear assasin? Take 250+ judo guy - you stab him, he will turn around and crush your skull with three fingers and then go like "wtf i got stabbed?".

Now if you actually take a look at real martial arts masters (not tv heroes) you will see a body build of _real_ medival warrior (nothing like Arnie) - short "square" body, massive heaps, belly, fists size of your head. This is a body type perfect for taking heavy blows as well as lots of minor damage. It is perfect for carrying sword/axe and armor (even w/o armor that stuff is pretty heavy).
Cute skinny boys with their toothpicks going to get _murdered_ in large numbers by just one _warrior_ 24/7.

Talking of skinny boys... 13-14 May, Toronto - MMA Expo. If you live in north america you definately should be there (i will be for sure).

Raziel665 · Apr 25, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

The assassin isnt made for strenght, its made for quick surprise attacks and then getting the hell out before the warrior kicks your ass, so I agree with Miakoda. Speed > Strenght, as speed is what the slim and nimble assassin is for, while strength is still for warriors, able to deal out large damage for a much longer time. After an assassin used his skill combo's/energy, he has to escape to get ready for a new attack, while a warrior can just keep on going.
The looks of an assassin fit just fine.

Xellos · Apr 25, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Just make a huge change where you have various frames of body per class per gender. Sure, lots of work for A.net, but hey, everyone's happy!

Miakoda · Apr 25, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

You should not bring MMA/UFC etc into the equation as that is not REAL combat, they all have rules which do not allow eye gauging amongst other things..

The fight would be over a lot quicker with a very swift eye jab, those places are not about surviving the situation they are about standing over the opponent at the end and shouting "WINNAR!".

I'm only using Bruce as the example of ectomorph body shapes compared to
much larger muscle mass and overall size, speed with no power is indeed pointless, but as i state again, when someone is using a knife.. and btw that judo guy with a knife to the neck won't be able to give chase, being built like Arnie won't help you flee.

There has been countless years of research into the best and most effective way to punch/kick/grapple/lock etc.. it's easy to break bones do serious damage to much larger opponents, there are no secrets in combat.

If I am to come up against an Arnie type I am going to run, or I am going to eye jab and then run.. or etc..

There is no perfect body type, but of course you should be fit and in training, and if your 7 stone and thinking you can enter a pugilist match with an Arnie or tyson, then you will most likely die, conversly if you are a tyson/Arnie type and you plan on picking on someone a lot smaller you and provided that person has had real training, expect to be out paced and possibly blinded.

I'm not advocating people go around jabbing eyes, but if you are faced in a real situation either avoid/run/talk your way out etc.

Forget what you see bruce do in the movies, look at what he tought in real life, or look at someone like Tommy Carutthers, small, lightning fast and powerfull, and smart. btw one of his students i much larger than him the one you usually see in his clips.

Brave · Apr 25, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

The asassin is skinny, but most Asian girls/boys are?

>_<

dark humar · Apr 25, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxterduke

Why cannot we get a fit Assassin like the pic here and instead we settle for the skinny boney one we saw.

Ah i totaly agree .... the assasin on the pic looks a way bether than the one i saw in factions beta (they are a way to skinny yes )

But look at the ritualist female chars ^^

led-zep · Apr 25, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miakoda

Yes because using a knife requires arnold like physique and strength..
ever heard of functional strength? large muscle mass does not = strength.

you do realise the bad guys wear armour, you're not stabbing flesh. dont be so quick to act the smart ass next time.

ixg · Apr 25, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

hoo hoo

strength isn't everything. hitting the right spot can do it all.
anyone ever do tai chi? no need for brute strength. it's all about getting the body into the right position. hard to explain really, it's pretty wierd. but it rocks.
a guy who knows his tai chi properly is more powerful than a monster mass of muscle.
brute force>speed is a simplistic approach.

Poison Ivy · Apr 25, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixg

hoo hoo

strength isn't everything. hitting the right spot can do it all.
anyone ever do tai chi? no need for brute strength. it's all about getting the body into the right position. hard to explain really, it's pretty wierd. but it rocks.
a guy who knows his tai chi properly is more powerful than a monster mass of muscle.
brute force>speed is a simplistic approach.

That is not Tai Chi...

Tai Chi is actually doing some pointless moves and to get yourself thinking I'll me healthy by doing this. It's not effective though.

honest_owen · Apr 25, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

i personally think the female assassin(ninja, lets face it) looks too skinny, but bigger boobs isn't gonna fix it, bigger aren't better. She just need a tad more flesh is all.

ps. i know it's a little off-topic, but am i the only one that thinks gabe's (a-la penny arcade) drawing of the ninja looks like a cartoon jessica alba?

Mordakai · Apr 25, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Mmmm... Jessica Alba in the Factions movie!

Zehnchu · Apr 25, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Mmmm... Jessica Alba in the Factions movie!

lol it was called Dark Angel

Ira Blinks · Apr 25, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miakoda

You should not bring MMA/UFC etc into the equation as that is not REAL combat, they all have rules which do not allow eye gauging amongst other things..

The fight would be over a lot quicker with a very swift eye jab, those places are not about surviving the situation they are about standing over the opponent at the end and shouting "WINNAR!".

I'm only using Bruce as the example of ectomorph body shapes compared to
much larger muscle mass and overall size, speed with no power is indeed pointless, but as i state again, when someone is using a knife.. and btw that judo guy with a knife to the neck won't be able to give chase, being built like Arnie won't help you flee.

There has been countless years of research into the best and most effective way to punch/kick/grapple/lock etc.. it's easy to break bones do serious damage to much larger opponents, there are no secrets in combat.

If I am to come up against an Arnie type I am going to run, or I am going to eye jab and then run.. or etc..

There is no perfect body type, but of course you should be fit and in training, and if your 7 stone and thinking you can enter a pugilist match with an Arnie or tyson, then you will most likely die, conversly if you are a tyson/Arnie type and you plan on picking on someone a lot smaller you and provided that person has had real training, expect to be out paced and possibly blinded.

I'm not advocating people go around jabbing eyes, but if you are faced in a real situation either avoid/run/talk your way out etc.

Forget what you see bruce do in the movies, look at what he tought in real life, or look at someone like Tommy Carutthers, small, lightning fast and powerfull, and smart. btw one of his students i much larger than him the one you usually see in his clips.

You comparing apples to oranges. You assume that someone bigger is stronger has less skill, based on another false assumption that speed = skill. Im sorry, but you judging of Hollywood trends... No matter how fast you are, you can't outrun punch or kick... forget sword.
We often get new people who come from asian martial arts with a smartass attitude of "oh look i can poke you in the eye!" (when grabbed or dragged into close fight), who just dont realize that simple pain reaction will make me break his neck instantly.
Dont get me wrong, my instructor does encourage use of dirty tricks like balls kicking etc., but the way you put it is just silly. If you going for the dirty trick you have to secure your position, you must be dominant, otherwise response will be so hard and fast you'll regret even thinking about it. If you think you can poke in the eye seasoned fighter and run off, that will be the last thing you did in your life. Which brings us back to original point: Fighter is someone who can deal _and_ take damage.

Now as for using a knife... Try to stab thru a ringmail for a change. Then put it on real person and do the same while he is kickin crap outta you.

As for ninja moves: again, you watch too much Hollywood crap. Real invisible move (stab?) can only come from a calm and relaxed person. Obfuscating clothing helps to. On the other hand speedy person with sharp movements will get everyone’s attention instantly, because as every non-predator animal humans have very good peripheral and motion vision.

Tight clothes are the worst thing you can have on you. It makes it very easy to grab you and direct damage

Raziel665 · Apr 25, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by led-zep

you do realise the bad guys wear armour, you're not stabbing flesh. dont be so quick to act the smart ass next time.

What if the warrior is wearing Gladiators amor? Hmmm?

Also, why does everyone compare it to real life, its still a game, you dont hear me shout "OMG! That necro is cheating, there is no way you can animate bone horrors in real life!"

BigTru · Apr 25, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

It's amazing how great they can make the scenary look, but the in-game character models and armor designs look kinda amatuer.

Rebel Dragon · Apr 25, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

It's amazing how great they can make the scenary look, but the in-game character models and armor designs look kinda amatuer.

in someway yes.. on alot other ways NO!
i have to agree. like what did they think when they made the ele armor? lets make a clown?
and what did they think while making warriors armor.. lets make a baddass armor so enemys just run away!

Martian · Apr 25, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I know nothing or little about proffesional fighting, being an RL pacifist, but what little i've learned from Media and gaming has led me to believe that the different fighting styles are neither better nor worse than one another.
A larger person can indeed absorb damage easily and deliver it back, albeit slowly and often innacurately, but very hard.
A more gymnastic and lithe person can generally stay out of reach of a larger fighter, and dodge into and out of combat to deliver damage quickly then avoid retaliation. However, the moment he slips up and lets that big guy land a hefty kick or punch, he could easily be out for the count or left vulnerable.
Similarly if that large person can't find and use the right oppurtunity to lash out, he will eventually become tired, probably faint from blood loss, and will succumb to ther lighter fighters assault.
Personally i like the way assasins look and would be very dissapointed if Anet decided to go for a more traditional body-shape, instead of maintaining the assassins as the lithe, jumpy killers they are, and should be.

Sidrakket · Apr 25, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Huh, whats all this?

Look, heres a lesson. For everyone.

Combat = force and leverage.

Thats it. It all comes down to that, from defense to offense.

Taller people have an advantage.
People who weigh more, have an advantage. No, this doesnt mean that fatty over there is particularly a good fighter, he has to be able to move his weight after all. But muscles weight is good not only because it makes you stronger, but because it makes you more massive, and people with naturaly more robust bone structures and simply a heavyey build have an advantage. And between two unskilled and frigthened sissys, the larger one, even if hes just 300 lbs of gooey lard, has the advantage over the nerd=p

Now, a smaller person can make use of leverage nicley and by no means are they excluded from being able to kick somethings ass, but all things else being equal size DOES MATTER.

So remember, force and leverage, using leverage to direct force, and overcome your enemy. Thats all there is to it. From kicking someone to chopping them in half with an axe. Everything else is fluff.

Its easy to hit/stab/whatever somebody, this has been known since the dawn of man.. even before. The point of every single combat system is to do it in such a way that attempts to give you a decent chance at not getting yourself hit/stabbed/whatever in the process.